Key Takeaways


1. Virtual bands succeed through storytelling and fandom, not just music. Riot's virtual bands (Pentakill, KDA, True Damage) worked because they gave fans characters with personalities, journeys, and lore to connect with — the same way people fall in love with Kelly Clarkson on American Idol or follow a Pixar character through hardship. The music was one ingredient; the story was the glue.

2. Getting buy-in requires winning both the heart and the mind. Toa's approach to pitching innovative ideas was to simultaneously create an emotional "aha moment" (excitement, creative resonance) and a strategic case (why it makes sense for the business). Having only one — a great idea with no business logic, or a smart strategy with no creative spark — often causes people to hesitate.

3. Cross-functional collaboration is hard but exponentially valuable. Making KDA required solving real organizational and process challenges: teams with different goals, creative standards, and workflows had to be aligned. But when it worked, the output wasn't 1+1=2, it was more like 10. True Damage was easier to execute because those processes were already in place.

4. Creative strategy isn't two separate things — it's one ongoing conversation. Toa rejects the model of "strategy first, then creative" or vice versa. He sees them as needing to iterate together until they're both sharp. It's slower and less high-volume, but it's how you create impact rather than just output.

5. The future of music and gaming is mixed reality, not full metaverse. Toa is bullish on virtual artists but thinks the near-term future isn't about fully immersive virtual worlds — it's about artists existing fluidly across multiple mediums and platforms. As AI drives down costs and increases accessibility, more creatives will build new experiences, and the song itself will shift from being the core product to being just one ingredient within a larger experience.

Brian Gold 

Can you please introduce yourself?

Toa Dunn 

I'm a big music fan and gamer at heart. I've spent a lot of time understanding how impactful music can be across different mediums, especially video games and esports. Music and games — that's my background, that's what I love.

Brian Gold 

How did you first get interested in gaming and music?

Toa Dunn 

For me, it really started separate at first. I was a big music fan at an early age — I played the saxophone and fell in love with jazz in junior high. I had this natural passion for music as a performing art. But I was also a gamer. I started on console — I was around for the early Atari and Nintendo days. I remember getting the NES with Duck Hunt and Mario — that was an amazing moment. I played everything from Mario to Zelda, a ton of Street Fighter from Street Fighter 2 all the way through Street Fighter IV, and a lot of Madden and sports games.

It wasn't until I got to Riot that I really started to fuse the two together. I never thought of them as things that could work together. Riot brought that to the table — what is music and gaming? What could it be? I started realizing the impact music can have on games and the experiences around them. Through my journey they were separate, and then I got to combine them, and my love grew for both even more.

Brian Gold 

You were the head of Riot Games Music — you built and scaled everything from creative marketing, distribution, A&R, and music production to creating virtual artists and bands who now have billions of streams on YouTube and Spotify, platinum records, and a massive fan base. Can you share the story behind the launch and arc of these virtual bands?

Toa Dunn 

We didn't start off with the idea of launching virtual bands — we progressed into that space. Our first virtual band was technically Pentakill, our metal band.

For those familiar with League of Legends, the game is primarily monetized through skins — alternate costumes for characters. Pentakill was already a skin line within the game when I first got to Riot. There was no real creative execution on them as a band; they were just a few characters sharing the same thematic.

We saw early videos — I believe from Brazil at Comic-Con — where players were cosplaying as if they were a band, doing mock performances and covers. That got the team excited, thinking: what if they were a band? What would that look like? The Gorillaz was our closest reference. It wasn't "Riot Games did a metal album" — it was "there's this band called Pentakill and they have an album." We created a website, released their single on day one, then dropped the whole album a week later. We treated them like a real band.

That was a passion project. The bass was played by one of our audio designers, the guitar by another audio designer/composer, and the drummer was in tech ops. We collaborated with some outside artists as well. It was received really well — not just from players but internally at Riot.

Moving into 2016–2017, we were figuring out what's next. Music was starting to become almost a brand pillar within Riot. There was this joke in Asia — "Riot Games is actually a music company that makes video games" — because of the impact our music had.

I started asking: what is fandom for our music brand? I dove deep into that question, and what came out of it was the idea of the ultimate band — where we could be the ultimate fans. That became KDA in 2018.

There was a very ambitious dream behind it. We actually only executed a sliver of the original pitch, which made sense because it was pretty aspirational. But over time we started to lean into it more. There's a natural progression: debut them, then see the impact. For a good six months it was buzzing — everybody was excited. I would listen to "Pop/Stars" on my 30-minute commute to work and back, not even from a critical ear. I just loved the song. That's when you know you're onto something.

With True Damage, they had more social presence — band members interacting with artists online, photos, and a partnership with Louis Vuitton. We were constantly building on what the ultimate fan experience could be.

The arc didn't start from "let's build bands." It was really a way for us to explore storytelling. As much as we were a music team working across games and esports, we could have just released the music. But we wanted to tell the story — who are the band members, what are their personalities, how do they interact? It was really about building a world, building lore. Because I believe that's the best way to connect with fans. You have to give them something to connect to. That's a lot of the magic behind these bands — and it takes an incredible mix of creatives to make something like KDA come to life.

Brian Gold 

With any organization, even one at the forefront of gaming and entertainment like Riot, you still have to get internal buy-in. There are questions across departments — how is this going to make money, is there data supporting that fans want this? How did you navigate that in order to synthesize this movement?

Toa Dunn 

That was probably one of the biggest wins with something like KDA. About 75% of my pitch was about what KDA — at the time just called "Pop Stars" — could be. But the other part was: how do you actually do something like this?

At Riot, we had this culture of highly empowered teams. There were the esports teams, the League mobile teams, the music team — all hyper talented, all with their own goals. There was no hierarchy where one person says go and everybody listens. So the question became: what if you want to do something together? How does that work?

Part of my pitch was about operationalizing it — how to get people excited to collaborate even when their goals are different. How do you synthesize goals into North Stars everyone believes in, while still being beneficial to individual goals? And then there are process questions: imagine building a character with one team, but another team says "we need it to look this way because it works in the game," and another team says "we need it to look well in this music video." Everyone's a taste maker in their own domain. All of a sudden they're wondering: who is this person giving feedback, and do I have to listen?

So behind the scenes, for KDA to have the impact it did, a lot of humans were solving problems around process and standards — plus the creative work. But when you can unlock that collaboration, instead of one plus one equaling two, the belief was one plus one plus one equaled ten. And I think we saw that in a really amazing way.

That process was something I was genuinely passionate about — creating collaborative environments, even when it's difficult. Because it comes down to: is this something really amazing? If it is, let's figure it out.

With True Damage the following year, a lot of those processes were already in place, which made it much easier relative to KDA.

Brian Gold 

Something like that requires Herculean coordination and a singular vision. If someone wanted to start an innovative project at their own organization — form a group, make a run at something — what pointers would you give them?

Toa Dunn 

The way I think about it is creative and strategy — usually treated as separate, but they should live in the same space.

People get excited about things, and when someone is excited about a decision, they're more likely to support it. But there's also the other side: if it's a sound and smart decision, they're more likely to make it. If you only have one, it's hard. "Strategically this sounds right but I'm not excited about it" — that creates pause. Or "this is creatively awesome but is it a dumb business move?" — that's also a problem. You want to solve both.

It really comes down to creating what I call the "aha moment." There was a specific leader at Riot — she was new, and I was coming in with this really big, out-of-left-field pitch for the first time. The story I told resonated with her.

When I was pitching KDA, I talked about fandom — what it is and how people connect to things. I used American Idol as an example: Kelly Clarkson from season one. People didn't fall in love with her because she was immediately the best performer. It was the journey. The ups, the downs, the story people connected with. When she won, her fans were livid with excitement because they had been there with her through the whole journey. That was my premise: I wanted to build those same kinds of connections with a virtual band.

She lit up — "I love Kelly Clarkson, I love that show, I get what you're doing, and I think this is really exciting." It wasn't a green light yet, but that was the first step. The next steps were about proving the strategic case — working with different teams, figuring out what needed to shift to make sense for each of them, without shifting it so much that it was no longer the original product.

So the tip is: lean into how you excite people, what story you're telling — but at the same time, make sure it strategically makes sense, and be prepared to answer for that. If you can do both in a compelling way, you have a chance.

Brian Gold 

It's the combination of heart and mind. And that idea of wanting to be part of a character's journey — that's Pixar storytelling 101. Get people to love the journey, even with all the character flaws.

Toa Dunn 

Exactly. It's all about connection. And music is a major mechanic for fostering that connection. You could hear a theme and immediately know — that's the Avengers theme. If you love Avengers, it excites you.

Music can evoke emotions. It informs you of how you should feel. If you've ever watched a scary movie without the soundtrack, it becomes almost corny — things pop up and it's just flat. But with the strings and the tension building before the scary moment, people are already on edge before it even happens.

Music can galvanize groups for a sporting event, remind people of a nostalgic moment, bring them back to it. Play the Star Wars theme in a movie theater — you hear the applause. It's powerful. Understanding how music fosters connection is the whole game.

Brian Gold 

You mentioned that Riot Games Music wasn't quite a traditional record label. Can you explain more about that model and how it differed?

Toa Dunn 

My point of view has always been: what are we trying to accomplish, and let's organize around that — rather than defaulting to what's traditionally done.

I get excited about finding new value and innovating, which means I'm not trying to replicate what others are doing. And as you look into the future, the music and fan experience continue to evolve. So I was always asking: what do we want this experience to be? Let's do that. If traditional processes don't help, we don't need them.

When people looked at what we were doing at Riot, some would say "oh, you're making a music label." But our goals were different. Yes, we marketed and distributed music — we had those functions. There was also a music publishing aspect because songwriters and composers were in-house. And there was a live performance aspect — how is the music performed on stage with real and virtual artists? That's more of a Live Nation-type function.

But it wasn't about being defined by any of those labels. It was just: what are we trying to accomplish? Let's do that.

Brian Gold 

You got to work with some incredible artists — Crystal Method, Noσaj, (G)I-DLE, Imagine Dragons. Who surprised you the most, from a personality or pure talent perspective?

Toa Dunn 

Pretty much every artist we worked with blew me away in different ways. We had a vetting process, and highly talented people came through it.

Imagine Dragons — I love those guys personally. The fact that they played League before we even started working with them — they were just fans. They played on tour, right up until they had to get on stage, and then again the moment they got off, until someone pulled their Wi-Fi. They were players and fans just like us. That connection was always fascinating.

Then there are people who are just hyper talented. Chrissie Costanza always blows me away. A lot of people didn't know who she was before "Legends Never Die," but then they heard her. That's still probably one of Riot's best-performing songs to this day, and she's still putting out incredible music on her own.

Nosaj — those are the homies. I actually knew him before Riot, back when I was DJing. He was in LA, and a mutual DJ friend connected us. We actually hung out and DJed together. So when we were starting the DJ Sona project and talking theory, I was like: I know a guy.

Crystal Method, all of these artists — we worked with them for specific reasons. They were hyper talented in their craft and also genuinely great humans to work with. That was a big part of the vetting process. Can I sit down, hang out with you, and actually build something together? Because the process was highly collaborative — not "here's a brief, send it over when you're done." It was back-and-forth. We were immersed with them and they were immersed with us. That kind of collaboration speaks for itself in the outcomes — songs and experiences that really resonate with players. Players could just tell: that was made for me.

Brian Gold 

The vibe has to be right — that's how you make the magic. I know Riot has incredible talent density, especially in the concept and art department, with a structure known as DNA — design, narrative, and art. How did you blend those elements and let them inspire you? Can you share a story about working with the concept art team?

Toa Dunn 

That was every project. Being surrounded by incredible talent across different backgrounds was a constant at Riot.

For Pentakill, it had such a different aesthetic from everything else — metal, badass, but not taking itself too seriously. A fun space to work in. When you dive into what that world looks like, you'd sit down with the creative directors and art folks, and they'd come back with first takes: "is it something like this?" And quite frankly, a lot of the time I'd just think: that is doper than I imagined. Then that dialogue starts to influence everything else.

Sometimes the music comes first. With KDA's "Pop/Stars," we had the instrumental pretty early because Seb and I found out we were both K-pop fans — he was a big 4Minute fan. He put together the instrumental fast, and that became the North Star for a lot of other creative decisions. It had this future, hard-hitting vibe that helped inform art direction.

To me, art is a conversation, especially across different mediums. At the end, it all needs to fit together. You've seen cases where you hear something and see something that feels like they were built on opposite sides of a wall. I never wanted that. It needed to feel like it came from the same world, the same mind.

I'll also say — I was spoiled at Riot with the art talent. From concepting to design to layout. And I was always learning because I don't come from a visual art background. Seeing how they unlock their talent, and how that unlocks other talent — that's the thing. Being immersed with creatives who are genuinely excited about the work is where you get that 10x output.

Brian Gold 

Riot had that fortunate problem of being surrounded by A-players. When everyone's great, you have to raise the bar on yourself. You have to filter out all that excess greatness.

Toa Dunn 

And that reminds me — there's always this question of: how do you top the last thing you did? After Imagine Dragons' "Warriors" in 2014, there was almost this cloud hanging over us — how are we ever going to beat this?

But here's my belief: creative is subjective. When you look at your audience, everyone's going to have a different opinion. So it's not about topping what you did — it's about making something fresh and compelling again. If you try to do the same thing, it's already been done. So it becomes: what is something different, new, and fresh we can do? That's where innovation comes in.

And it works. Some people will say 2014 Warriors is the best, nothing will ever top it. Others will say "Legends Never Die" in 2017 was their moment. Others love Rise in 2018, or the KDA release. All on the same level, just different experiences. To me, that's what success looks like — not a race to top the last thing, but innovating and doing something fresh without going so far that people feel you're just being different for its own sake. It's about creating something great, special, and new.

Brian Gold 

Beautifully said. We've talked offline about your approach to creative strategy, and you've touched on it here. Can you speak more to it — especially from a team leadership perspective, about where creativity and strategy meet?

Toa Dunn 

I like to not have walls between those two things. There's always a two-sided coin — the downside being it can feel like everyone's in each other's space. You have to mitigate that. But the alternative — where strategy is fully done and then handed off to creative, or where creative throws something over the wall to marketing — creates disconnects. The product and how it's marketed feel off. Or the product team feels like the marketing doesn't represent what it was supposed to be.

My view is that creative and strategy aren't separate — it's a conversation, it's iteration. It can start from anywhere. You can be inspired by a strategic opportunity: "this is a space we should be playing in, I don't know what it looks like yet, but let's go." Or you can be inspired purely creatively: "this would look sick, people would love this." Both are valid. But the key is that it needs to go back and forth so that the creative and strategy solidify together. You end up with something that's creatively sharp and strategically sound — they fit.

Yes, it's probably less efficient. It can be slower. But I wasn't trying to build high volume. I was trying to build impact. If you want to get 20 things out fast, optimize for that. But if you want to create impact, it needs to be sharp.

Brian Gold 

Onto the future — what technologies or trends are you most excited about?

Toa Dunn 

When you look across music, gaming, and tech holistically, there's a lot happening. Most industries don't know what they'll look like in five to ten years. Everyone's looking for the next product and platform. It's a really interesting time.

You have new technology — AI, blockchain, and more. Fascinating potential tools to build the products and platforms of the future. I think how we engage with and connect to music and artists is going to look fundamentally different. Gaming is going to evolve too. It's no longer niche — the mainstream fully sees it now. So the question for me is: what are those future products and platforms? What needs to be built, and how do we bridge to that? That's exciting because at heart, I'm a builder and creator. I love building teams, galvanizing people, getting them excited, and then strategically going after something amazing.

Brian Gold 

You mentioned being inspired by K-pop. It feels like K-pop and gaming grew alongside each other and are now vaulted to the top of mainstream culture. What inspired you about K-pop? How did you come across it, and who are you still inspired by today?

Toa Dunn 

Several things about K-pop really got me. When I was listening to it, it was different. There was more experimentation, more musicality. A song could sound like three different songs put together — the vibe would just change, with choruses and bridges doing unexpected things. Western pop at the time was more formulaic — they'd figured out the hook formula. K-pop was doing all types of things. You'd hear something and think: I would have never made that decision. Wild, but in a cool way. That's what drew me in early — it felt fresh.

They also understood fandom. When I think about the future of music, K-pop is closer to the example of how you cater to a fandom, what fandom could be, and how you build business models around it. They had the bands, the individual personalities — it was compelling to get immersed in that world.

With KDA, it wasn't just "let's do K-pop." There were highly referenceable elements, but KDA was really our take — and even then, it was broader. There's dubstep in it, hip-hop influence, both English and Korean. That's what music is now — infused with everything. Most artists have been influenced by many things. The musicality and the fandom culture are what really grabbed me about K-pop.

Brian Gold 

As the future of gaming and music increasingly overlap, what are your predictions for virtual bands, avatars, and virtual influencers moving forward?

Toa Dunn 

I'm excited about it, and I think it's going to look different than what most people imagine.

When people think of virtual artists, they often think of fully virtual worlds — metaverse-type experiences. Think of it as a spectrum: 100% immersion in a virtual world on one end, 100% in the physical world on the other. Most of the music industry has existed in the physical world — you go to a concert, you're immersed in that experience. True full virtual immersion isn't quite here yet. You really need a headset to fully experience it. Watching on a screen is much closer to a music video than actual immersion.

So I think the near-to-medium-term future isn't about getting people into fully virtual worlds — it's more like mixed reality. It's about how artists can exist across different mediums and platforms, and how you leverage technology to enable that.

As AI drives prices down and creates more accessibility, you're going to see more creatives get their hands on these tools and create new experiences, products, and platforms. I'm bullish.

Right now, music monetization happens primarily at the song level — everyone's chasing the song. I think you have to abstract up a level, where the song is one ingredient in a broader product experience. That's when you get into experiences. That's the future.

Brian Gold 

You and I both agree the Western model has to adapt toward a K-pop and Asian fandom approach. We're getting there, but executives and labels seem slow to make the shift. Do you have any advice for those at the top?

Toa Dunn 

I don't think major labels are trying to build it themselves — they're more like investment banks when it comes to future products and platforms. They're investing rather than creating. The major unlock is going to be the big conversation around music copyright. But we'll get there.

Brian Gold 

What's next for you? Are there any upcoming projects or initiatives you're excited about?

Toa Dunn 

There are two things I'm really focused on right now.

One is consulting and advising teams and companies — game devs especially. I spent about 10 years figuring out how music and gaming work together, and those two worlds speak different languages. They have different needs and it can be complex. So I'm consulting and supporting teams who want to get into music or lean into it more — whether that's music strategy, resourcing, or navigating copyright. I want to help lift that, because there's going to be more and more collaboration between music and gaming.

The second is helping teams and companies who want to build the future I've been talking about — those future products and platforms in the music space. There are a few key areas of interest for me, and I'm putting my time, network, and experience behind the people building in that space. Because that bridge needs to happen. That's where I'm focused.

Brian Gold  I can't thank you enough for this chat. I love speaking and catching up with you. Where can people find you and stay updated on your journey?

Toa Dunn  For quick updates, find me on Twitter at @ToaDunn — T-O-A-D-U-N-N. For more substantive content, LinkedIn is the better place. I'm planning to start a newsletter and drop some articles and blogs. As my future projects develop, I'll use that to connect people and share what's coming. Start with my socials and watch for the newsletter.

Edited for length and clarity.